101. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289256 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 11:49 am

What often passes for "rationalism" in post industrial societies is actually a kind of reductionistic machine worship. Bureaucracies, for example, are a kind of organizational machines. Another manifestation of this attitude is the obsession with gathering all kinds of stupid data even though no one would be able to tell you what they are useful for.

This is actually not very rational at all, it is more of a fetish which apes the form of rational method but misses all the substance: evidence shows that people don't behave like automatons.

However, because of the limitations and confusions of language we often label a kind of brave new world way or organizing society as "rational". This criticism against "rationality" is exemplified in John Rolsten Saul's "Voltaire's bastard",-- Laurie Fraser recommended this book a few days ago. In the book Saul launched into a rambling diatribe against "rationalism" but all the while I kept thinking his targets actually were not that rational at all even though they claimed to be. Saul, in turn, was fighting a strawman.

102. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289251 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 11:41 am

If I may cut in for a moment I think Roger and Boron are using different definitions of "rational".

103. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289221 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 10:20 am

Frankus

The Sweden/America thing is a question of cultural milieu

I think the religious culture and the absence of social services and safety net reinforce each other like a positive feed back loop.

104. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289210 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 10:02 am

Steve

This is about the possibilities of education. I have no doubt that as a result of education, the Swedes tend to think more rationally than Americans

Education is obviously important. But I think there is also nsomething structurally different between the U.S and countries like Sweden.

The U.S. has a weak welfare state and churches fill in the gap in organizing communities and providing services. As a result religion plays a much more prominant role in civic life in America.

Going back to the topic of the thread, apparently many black voters turned up to vote for Obama AND prop 8 (according to exit polls about 70% of black voters supported prop 8).

This is actually quite expected because as a community African Amricans have been traditionally repressed. Since they could even expect less help from the governmnent in case of need comparing to whites, the black churches traditionally played an even bigger role in community life. It was not surprising that the black Churches have been an instrumental force for the Civil Right movement. But as we all know, religion utimately appeals to authority and irrationality, so relying on churches for community survival inevitably has its downsides.

105. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289200 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 9:44 am

Steve

Don't you dare shave. I don't understand this obsession with men looking like boys.

I do like to look boyish myself, though I am attracted to more "manly" men. But facial hair is definitely a turn off. :)

106. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289199 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 9:42 am

Decius and epeeist

Actually I did see some Mozart operas performed. I kind of like them though the tickets are pricey.

I think Mozart's work belongs to the "classical era", right?

It is the more "modern" stuffs that I don't like. By "modern" I mean the 19th century, like Puccini.

EDIT: My classical music enthusiast friends said my taste is shallow and they are probably right. :)

107. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289180 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 9:24 am

decius

Do you like classical music?

Some, but I am definitely not an educated listener.

I like some works of Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart, Hyden, Paganini, Mendelsohn, Rachmanonov, Chopin and Schubert. Very few Beethovan's, but I can't tell you which ones they are.

Wagner drives me up the wall. Once I listened to the Flying Dutchman. It was so boring that I felt like hanging myself.

I know, I am uncultured.

108. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289173 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 9:18 am

Baron

Once we use our opponent's underhand tactics, we've lost.

Good point. Speaking of which the "Rational Respond Squad" appears to have sunken into oblivion. It is a good development.

109. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289166 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 9:15 am

There you go. I hate opera (and musicals too, can't stand the sound of music). There goes another gay stereotype.

110. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289164 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 9:11 am

Baron

(To be very pedantic, the full name is Baron Vitellio Scarpia. 10 points for anyone who knows where it comes from)

I dunno. Tried to look up google and a lot of Italian sites turned up. Susuan Sontag mentioned him in a book. Seems he was some kind of prosecutor in Renaissance Naples. I am sure decius would know.

EDIT: Opps decius gave the answer already.

111. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289154 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 9:04 am

Roger

Perhaps someone might be able to help me on this but I don't know what percentage of the population is considered to be gay. I have in my mind that it is about 2% (1 in 50). Am I roughly right on this?

Depends on your definition. Like I said, everyone is a little gay unless s/he never masturbates. Ok, hermaphodites are off the hook too. :)

112. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289149 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 9:01 am

Baron

Apparently it was quite common for gay people towards the beginning of the twentieth century to be Catholics.

Could be a cultural thing.

I met this gay guy who went to Church every sunday, apparently at first just to meet potential clients and build business connections (I think he was some kind of salesman). But after a while he sort of leaning more towards believing even though he still called himself an agnostic. I guess the subliminal message took hold after listening to all the sermons. I think many straight people do that too.

113. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289146 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 8:52 am

Baron

I actually do wonder about the proportion of atheists that are gay or bisexual. Has anyone done any research on the subject of whether you're more or less likely to be an atheist if you're in the LGBT crowd?

Interesting questions. There are two questions actually 1) Are atheists more likely to be gay or bi? 2) Are gay or bi people more likely to be atheists?

For the second question, though I haven't seen any research but based on personal ads on gay dating sites (ok I visit those once in a while as I am very single) surprisingly many gay men claim religious affiliations. Once I dated a guy and we sort of like each other, but then the conversation degenerated into a full blown debate over religion. Of course I kicked his ass but that was our first and last date. :)

114. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289143 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 8:42 am

Berstien

It's no surprise where you [steve z] stand on the matter.

What does that suppose to mean? I haven't read all the posts here but it seems that almost everyone (except you) agrees with steve on the matter.

115. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289141 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 8:40 am

Mitchell

I was actually fishing for a compliment you asshole. Instead I get "yeah, you're an ugly dirty fuck, but that's okay!"

I know, that's why I deliberately withhold my compliment even though I secretly thinks you're adorable. What did I tell you, I am a jackass. :)

116. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289122 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 8:17 am

Mitchell

I'm just not good looking or hygienic enough to be gay

Believe me that is a totally unwarranted stereotype.

Once I lived in this run down house for three months. That was an all gay household, I found the ad in a local gay newspaper. I lived there because of the unbelievably cheap rent (the landlord told me previously there was a striaght guy pretending to be gay just to take advantage of the cheap rent, when he found out he was ok with that, but then the guy brought in a girl friend and she freaked out when she saw the pictures of naked men on the wall)

These were the most dirty, witless and unattractive people I have ever met, straight or gay. They were a bit older (or look old as some people might just be in their thirties), working class people. The landlords were a gay couple in their 50's. These people had no interest other than drinking and doing drugs. When the couple was off work on a two week vactaion they just sat home and started drinking at 10am all the way til 2am! I went to school in the morning, those guys were drinking, by the time I was back in the evening, they were still drinking as if they hadn't even left the chair. Then at around 1 or 2 am they would start shrieking because they were doing drugs with their buddies. I just couldn't sleep.

But the worst part was the smell. Some people there apparently never showered and did their laundry probably only once a month. The stentch was so unbearable that I had to open my window even in the middle of winter.

I moved out as soon as I found another place.

117. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289117 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 8:05 am

Jabber

He's (Elton John) OK with it because it's not about him

Exactly. As long as he gets to keep his money and mansions what does he care. Since it is not about him IMO he should shut up because unfortunately, many people do think he's a somebody and his opinions would be used to hurt others.

P.S. He is ugly and his music sucks. I have been saying this all along and it has nothing to do with his stance on prop 8. I think I should just mention it. :)

118. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289110 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 7:58 am

Mitchell

(must suck being a gay atheist. Bonzai, what other things do you do with the sole intention to make people dislike you?

Well this time my friends and I went to an expensive shopping area and we sat in a Starbuck patio to make loud, off colour jokes,--that's an understatement,-- just to make the well dressed, middle aged people there feel uncomfortable.

I am a jackass so I shouldn't be used as an example for humanity.

EDIT: I think we probably would get along. :)

119. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289100 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 7:52 am

I think promoting rationality is a more worthy goal than to promote atheism. Atheism should be the result of rationality. I don't really care if people have a *personal* relationship with Jesus as long as he doesn't try to push it on others in public.

On the other hand, you can have atheism without rationality such as Stalinism and Maoism and we don't need that.

120. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #289093 by Bonzai on November 23, 2008 at 7:46 am

Elton John said he's ok with proposition 8.

http://www.fridae.com/newsfeatures/article.php?articleid=2335&viewarticle=1

121. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #288970 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 11:17 pm

Matt,

Xenophobia seems to be somewhat universal among all civilizations, but homophobia was not. So, no, I don't think they are variations of the same theme.

122. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #288969 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 11:15 pm

Berstein

If we are going to accept all religious induced bigotry in order not to "make things more difficult than they are already for atheists" what is the point of promoting atheism anyway?

123. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #288963 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 10:15 pm

Homophobia can't be an evolved trait as the taboo against homosexuality was not universal in all cultures.

124. The Religious Support Behind Proposition 8

Comment #288941 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 8:12 pm

Everyone who ever masturbates is a little gay.

125. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288812 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Steve

have heard that many great cuisines arose from peoples under siege who were forced to eat anything.

Well there is this Chinese dish which involves baking a chicken in ceremic. When you eat it you have to crack it open with a little hammer. I have never had it because you can find it only in very pricy restaurants and I am a world renowned cheapo.

But anyway, this is how the story goes. Once upon the time there was a bum who stole a chicken from a village. Just when he was about to barbeque the chicken on an open fire he heard the village people coming for him. In desperation the bum rolled the chicken in mud and tossed it in the fire to destroy the evidence. When the village people arrived they couldn't find the chicken so they just left the bum alone. After all the commotions the bum retrived the chicken from the fire. By that time it was cooked in a hard mud encasing. Being very hungry the bum cracked open the mud hoping that there was still some chicken left. But to his surprise the chicken was perfectly baked with all its delicious juice preserved.

The bum eventually joined some rebel army to fight the Mongols. Many years later he became the leader of the rebels and finally the Emperor when the Mongols were driven out. He was old and nostalgic by then and remembered that tasty chicken wrapped in mud he had many years ago when he was a bum, so he ordered the palace chefs to prepare a dish like that. The chefs took the original idea and improved upon it tremendously. The chicken was baked in a ceremic coating with all kinds of expensive incredients at perfect temperature.When the chicken was cooked, it was encased in a ceremic shell which had to be cracked open with a little hammer. That was the origin of the modern recipe.

P.S. A friend told me in medieval Europe rich people used to hang the carcasses of game animals in the dungens of their castles until they were partly eaten by maggots as a way to tenderize the meat. Is there any truth to it?

126. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288794 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 12:39 pm

If you have a chance to visit China or Hong Kong you must try stinky Tofu. It is made from fermanted tofu soaked in the gross liquid from pickling vegitable. When deep fried it stinks like dirty feet but it tastes sooo good. The kind you find in China towns are not authentic, they don't stink cause otherwise the joints that sell them would be shut down.

127. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288766 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 11:30 am

I thought you said Limbaugh. My mistake.

128. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288762 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 11:23 am

Welll it seems that JanChan is for real

http://janchanaa.blogspot.com/2007/11/if-there-was-one-thing-i-could-change.html

Here is his ranting manifesto

I'm pro-atheism, pro-Darwinian, pro-intelligence, pro-elitism, pro-technocracy, pro-abortion, pro-Westernisation, pro-Science, pro-secularism, pro-animal indifference, pro-eugenics, pro-euthanasia, pro-collectivisation, pro-fairness, pro-determinism, pro-evolutionary psychology and morality, *... And all in good reason too (and all in good time too, I suppose)

129. I'm Not One Of Those 'Love Thy Neighbor' Christians

Comment #288753 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 11:08 am

Steve

If you are interested in some really mind-blowing sci-fi, in which not even the people look like people, I can really recomment the works of greg Bear... Eon is wonderful, as is Moving Mars.

Are there many scantly dressed, slim teenage girls with big eyes and humongous heads in them? :)

130. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288720 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 9:57 am

CshepGuy

then getting depressed because he can't even build a robot that can challenge his mind

That is an interesting theological question. Can God create something that can challenge his mind? If no then he is no better than Jan. If yes maybe we are actually smarter than God and that's why we don't hear from him anymore, he knows if he shows up today he will be captured and put in a zoo.

131. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288717 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 9:52 am

JanChan is a spoof.

He sounded exactly like my housemate downstair who is also an engineering student. This guy loves to make outlandishly stupid arguments that even he doesn't believe just to get a reaction.

JanChan stopped posting just when this guy went to bed.I tried to check on him earlier he told me he was on some forum.

132. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288578 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 3:21 am

I am good at non algorithmic programming too.

I am begining to think that we are visited by wooter's dorm buddy.

133. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288575 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 3:17 am

It was because Britain suddenly withdrew all its opium during the war, that China became instable and couldn't win the war.

What are you talking about? So are you saying that the Chinese would have won the war if they had a steady supply of opium so they could go to battle all mellow??!!

What is wrong with you?

134. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288570 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 3:09 am

I too take quantum physics, and I can tell you I hate Schodinger's wave function, especially the time dependent equation.

Then you shouldn't be doing any quantum mechanics.

135. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288567 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 3:05 am

You know when China first opened its markets, foreigners never took any land from it,

That was because at first they had no idea how decrepit China was. But slowly they began to find out.

136. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288563 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 3:00 am

ARGHH do I have to explain everything again. Foreigners took land from China because it was unable to pay up its massive trade deficit

That was called imperialism, not "trade". Britian wanted access to China's market (for opium) and forced it open with the gun. Other European countries follow suits afterwords. If you know your Chinese history the Chinese state did not regularly "trade" with countries outside its immediate orbit. It pride itself for being self sufficient. There was no or little trade with Europe, hence no trade deficit, prior to the forced intrusion of European powers.

137. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288557 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:51 am

The conditions are something like US currently, we're not producing anything the world wants, and China's still providing cheap labour.

And the relationship with the ESA is?

138. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288554 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:48 am

It's quite simple really, the monarch supported the Boxers rebellion because the boxers were promising to get rid of the foreigners. The monarchy obviously want back Chinese lands because foreigners were using cheap Chinese labour to pump out tons of silk, leaving China with no source of income and no way to pay for the opium.

And you sum this up as "trade deficit"??!! I think if someone has taken your land at gun point and you try to get it back,--in whatever stupid way,--there are more than "trade" issues involve.

139. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288551 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:42 am

JanChan

Some people obviously dont understand the state of China's economy in the 19th century, it would be something like 10 times worse than the present US economy, they had absolutely no way to pay back anything. And we would get into that state soon if we don't reverse the trade deficit.

And you obviously don't know anything about Chinese history, you don't even have the basic facts straight. Go read a real book.

140. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288550 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:39 am

JanChan

Stop being an arse about Chinese history, all those event occurred because the monarchy wanted to make a profit by getting back their lands and ports to sell silk. Which they werent making a profit because of the trade deficit.

What kind of gibberish is this?

Do you learn Chinese history from some fratboys too?

141. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288543 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:31 am

JanChan

China had imported opium years before the opium war, but they did so at a loss, so they ban it. British wanted back the debt, of course they also want to continue selling opium,

So let me get this straight, if you sell me something on credit and I have not been paying for a while, now in order to recoup the money you want to sell me more on credit and when I don't want to buy your stuff anymore you beat me up?

Is that what your frat boy friends taught you about economics?

BAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

They looted the imperial palace as a result of the boxer rebellion.

Where the hell did you learn your Chinese history?

142. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288538 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:25 am

JanChan

You sir are the one smoking. Chinese government ban opium because they couldn't sell enough silk to buy more opium. Finally some smart-ass officer decided to burn all the British opium.

So the invasion was prompted by the British trying to force the Chinese to buy more opium because that meant profit for the British dope pusher. If it were because of "trade deficit" why would they want someone to buy more knowing that they couldn't pay already?

You are not only ignorant of the facts, you can't even make logical deduction given the facts.

If the Chinese could produce more than they consume none of that would happen.

Produce more opium or produce more so they could buy more opium? You are one hell of a funny guy.

143. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288531 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:12 am

Well, sooorrrrry, I wanted to write 19th century but 1900 came out instead

And cause of opium war is trade deficit if you didn't know

The opium war had nothing to do with "trade deficit". The British went to war because the Chinese government tried to ban the opium trade. This was a clear case of imperialism.

What the hell are you smoking?

144. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288528 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:08 am

JanChan

Well, to name a few examples, monarchy China in the 1900s had a trade deficit because of the opium trade, foreigners decided to carve out their own lands from China because China couldn't repay the debts.

That is a very novel interpretation of Chinese history.

The first Opium war happened in 1840 and as a result Hong Kong was ceded to Britain. What did debt or trade deficit have to do with it?

145. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288522 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:01 am

Do you realise that since I'm doing all these in my dorm some of my friends are laughing their arse off?

Not surprising as you are obviously hanging out with idiots.

146. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288521 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 2:00 am

You run up the huge deficit by tax cuts, astronomical military spendings, invasion of Iraq and now bailing out Wall Street because of the success of the free market. Einstein.

147. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288514 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 1:52 am

JanChan

I learn economics from some of my economics dorm friends

In other words a bunch of Frat boys with probably well to do parents. BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

148. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288512 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 1:48 am

Laurie

Up here in Canada Obama would be considered a conservative.

149. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288510 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 1:46 am

JanChan

And I didn't know terms made all the difference, I was talking about policies, and suddenly you jumped the gun to Terms???

That is to highlight your ignorance. Do you learn economics from Fox News?

150. Bush set to relax endangered species rules

Comment #288506 by Bonzai on November 22, 2008 at 1:45 am

JanChan

You're confusing social attitude with economical school. More left leaning usually means socially liberal and economically interventionist,--not "liberal" in the sense of classical economics.